Leni Riefenstahl interviewed by Kevin Brownlow

"If Leni Riefenstahl had done nothing but visit Africa and bring back her photographs, her place in history would be secure."

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"Let's say that the time I spent with the Nuba was among the happiest of my life, among the most beautiful of my life. It was just wonderful. Because they were always cheerful, laughing all day long, good people who never stole a thing. They were happy about everything, pleased with everything. And they had no capital punishment or anything of the kind. The punishments there were really harmless and the greatest crime was stealing a goat. A heavy punishment would mean that the offender would have to go for a few days to the nearest place that had a police station and there do some punitive work like road sweeping and other menial chores."

But the Nuba's state of innocence offended the authorities. "The Sudanese government had forbidden them to go around naked, they had to wear clothing." This order, however, took some years to change the way they lived.

Leni had come to Africa primarily to make a film, not to take still pictures. But now the film had collapsed, she fell back on her trusty Leica camera.

"A difficult question; how did you know the right moment?"

"I simply try as quickly as possible-it has to be quick-to find the right framing. I work very, very fast."

"This remarkable talent could not have appeared overnight. When did you realise you had this talent?"

"I actually got that from my director, when I was appearing as an actress in my first films with Dr Arnold Fanck. He was an outstanding photographer. He showed me how to do it, and how to frame photographs. I absorbed it all unconsciously, watching him work. And then I began unconsciously photographing, just as he did. So unconsciously he was my teacher."

"Did you ever consider Polaroids?"

"I had Polaroids for several reasons. One was to use them with the customs authorities. The various provinces had customs borders and it was always a great problem to get across. I would photograph the customs officers and give them the photo and I'd then get permission to cross the border. In fact, whenever I had problems with people, the Polaroid was my best helpmate. I also used them so that the Nuba could see for the first time what they looked like. It was very funny. When I showed the Polaroid, one Nuba would say to the other "That's you!" They'd never seen themselves and they just kept looking at the picture and then the other one would say "But that's you!" They had no mirrors, and when the Nuba got their Polaroid picture, they all wanted one. I was completely overwhelmed. They were screaming for the pictures. I didn't have that much film on me.They were just crazy about them."

"But the Moslems felt that photographing naked people was wrong?"

"Yes. In the Sudan that's a very grave offence. It's almost a crime. And that was my greatest difficulty. No one in the Sudan was supposed to know that I was photographing these naked people. During the first expedition, I still had to send my photographs to Khartoum to be censored. I have an album here with photos where you can see those marked that I wasn't allowed to publish. They didn't destroy the photos, I just wasn't allowed to publish them. One was always on a knife edge. It was dangerous with the government there. I kept getting on the blacklist in Khartoum. The really extraordinary thing was when there was one of those changes of government and President Nimeiri gained power-my books had already been published then-a miracle took place. Because Nimeiri said "These pictures are Art" and I ought to be given an award for them. Even when the people are naked. And I received the highest Sudanese order, and a Sudanese passport."

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