Pop, Irony and Seriousness
Albert Oehlen in conversation with Thomas Groetz about Martin Kippenberger
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TG: Does the whole thing have something to do perhaps with a satire on kinetic sculpture? After all, there are these dancing boot appliances by Stephan van Huene, aren't there?
AO: I'm quite sure it's got nothing to do with that.
TG: Can you tell me something about another sculpture, this camping table top composed of individual slats on which is written, in Dutch, "waarom" [Why]? You can't of course sit on the table, because the top is on the ground. The title is Wen haben wir uns denn heute an den Tisch gekauft? What do you see in all that?
AO: This work had its origin in the complex for the Peter/Petra exhibitions. His starting-point for many of the sculptures was the theme of "house and garden". And he took it further, producing these semi-crazy appliances. The secret theme was always either the function of the appliance or its manufacture.
TG: A further important work by Kippenberger is Martin, ab in die Ecke und schäm dich dating from 1989, which exists in various versions. The shame motif is a typical Kippenberger motif; in other words, the reversal of using the defensive to avoid the offensive. Can one really draw strength from weakness and vulnerability?
AO: I don't know. Who could we ask?
TG: But you two often operated with the word "peinlich" [embarrassing]. What was the idea behind that?
AO: The first thing in which we were involved jointly was the 1979 Elend [Wretchedness] exhibition, which Martin organized. "Elend" was a word that fascinated us. The most popular painters at the time were "aggressive", "wild", "spontaneous" etc., all virtues that were in fashion for quite a long time but which didn't interest us. Embarrassment, wretchedness, failure were far more to our taste. They suggested a much larger plan than a simple "behold the wild man". They weren't the theme of our work, but welcome accompanying phenomena. In this way we could work in peace and quiet on something really much bigger.
TG: How would you describe this "much bigger"?
AO: Well, by "bigger" I mean, in this context, "more complex" or "more complicated".
TG: In the Ab in die Ecke sculpture, do you see something self-portrait-like, or can one discern a symbol of general refusal, rigidity, barricading-oneself-in, and thus losing one's face? This would also fit the head of the figure which, here, is, after all, an empty, transparent form. Or do you think this social-critical reading misses the point?
AO: Yes, this is certainly autobiographical. Cigarette-ends have been cast into the head. Martin knew that he often put his foot in it; that he got on people's nerves. He would have preferred more harmony but, under the strict conditions he laid down, that was impossible. So he kept putting his foot in it, and made this penitential sculpture in three versions. In this way, he derived some profit from it.
Page [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]
Page [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]
TG: Does the whole thing have something to do perhaps with a satire on kinetic sculpture? After all, there are these dancing boot appliances by Stephan van Huene, aren't there?
AO: I'm quite sure it's got nothing to do with that.
TG: Can you tell me something about another sculpture, this camping table top composed of individual slats on which is written, in Dutch, "waarom" [Why]? You can't of course sit on the table, because the top is on the ground. The title is Wen haben wir uns denn heute an den Tisch gekauft? What do you see in all that?
AO: This work had its origin in the complex for the Peter/Petra exhibitions. His starting-point for many of the sculptures was the theme of "house and garden". And he took it further, producing these semi-crazy appliances. The secret theme was always either the function of the appliance or its manufacture.
TG: A further important work by Kippenberger is Martin, ab in die Ecke und schäm dich dating from 1989, which exists in various versions. The shame motif is a typical Kippenberger motif; in other words, the reversal of using the defensive to avoid the offensive. Can one really draw strength from weakness and vulnerability?
AO: I don't know. Who could we ask?
TG: But you two often operated with the word "peinlich" [embarrassing]. What was the idea behind that?
AO: The first thing in which we were involved jointly was the 1979 Elend [Wretchedness] exhibition, which Martin organized. "Elend" was a word that fascinated us. The most popular painters at the time were "aggressive", "wild", "spontaneous" etc., all virtues that were in fashion for quite a long time but which didn't interest us. Embarrassment, wretchedness, failure were far more to our taste. They suggested a much larger plan than a simple "behold the wild man". They weren't the theme of our work, but welcome accompanying phenomena. In this way we could work in peace and quiet on something really much bigger.
TG: How would you describe this "much bigger"?
AO: Well, by "bigger" I mean, in this context, "more complex" or "more complicated".
TG: In the Ab in die Ecke sculpture, do you see something self-portrait-like, or can one discern a symbol of general refusal, rigidity, barricading-oneself-in, and thus losing one's face? This would also fit the head of the figure which, here, is, after all, an empty, transparent form. Or do you think this social-critical reading misses the point?
AO: Yes, this is certainly autobiographical. Cigarette-ends have been cast into the head. Martin knew that he often put his foot in it; that he got on people's nerves. He would have preferred more harmony but, under the strict conditions he laid down, that was impossible. So he kept putting his foot in it, and made this penitential sculpture in three versions. In this way, he derived some profit from it.
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Martin Kippenberger, 1985. Foto: Bernhard Schaub
Martin Kippenberger / Albert Oehlen, Capri by night, Dispersion with rolled oats, 1982