Pop, Irony and Seriousness
Albert Oehlen in conversation with Thomas Groetz about Martin Kippenberger
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TG: I find it creepy that Martin Kippenberger's already been dead for seven years while Lemmy's still alive. Motörhead still sound very fresh, even today.
AO: Martin's work is at least as fresh as Motörhead's. But the comparison isn't out of place. Lemmy regenerated himself just as quickly as our friend, though he took it a bit easier.
TG: Another very complex work is Bergwerk, which is represented in this exhibition as a painted variant titled Das Erbe. On the picture two spotlights can be seen, so that we might be reminded of youth culture, and pop, and disco and dancing, perhaps?
AO: Correct. The picture dates from after the sculpture. There's a story behind that. Once, late one night, Martin explained the idea behind this picture. Months later I asked him what had become of the work but he knew nothing about it. So I described it to him, very precisely once more, and once again so he could write it down. He was quite enthusiastic about his idea, and went on to execute it. Normally he had a fantastic memory for the details of his work.
TG: Martin Kippenberger always liked dancing.
AO: And he danced very well.
TG: But what has all that got to do with a mine?
AO: Under the carpet there's an iron plate and under that there's a shaft leading down through foam, hardboard and foam again, until we get to a space with pasta in. He came from Essen, and his father was a colliery manager. That's why he was able to imagine something like that. He wanted to have it like a tiramisu. That would mean the main course was buried in the dessert. That was his philosophy.
TG: So the pasta is hidden, like the unknown object in Duchamp's sculpture, With A Mysterious Noise?
AO: Quite. Martin was not interested in secrets; he was glad to tell anyone. Things you know have a stronger effect on you than things you know nothing about.
TG: But there are people marked throughout their lives by unconscious complexes and repressed injuries or insults, aren't there?
AO: Me, for example.
TG: The Bergwerk sculpture shows an unspeakable boot-like, Freddy Mercury shoe placed on a carpet. That's a strange culture clash in itself. The whole thing is then placed on a yellow, two-part foam plinth. What's the point of this elevation, this cushioning?
AO: Well, at the bottom, people are slaving away to earn their bread (or pasta) and, at the top, people are dancing. That is not so much a culture clash as a contrast between work and leisure or house-and-garden (cf. the carpet). And besides, at one time we wore boots like that ourselves.
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TG: I find it creepy that Martin Kippenberger's already been dead for seven years while Lemmy's still alive. Motörhead still sound very fresh, even today.
AO: Martin's work is at least as fresh as Motörhead's. But the comparison isn't out of place. Lemmy regenerated himself just as quickly as our friend, though he took it a bit easier.
TG: Another very complex work is Bergwerk, which is represented in this exhibition as a painted variant titled Das Erbe. On the picture two spotlights can be seen, so that we might be reminded of youth culture, and pop, and disco and dancing, perhaps?
AO: Correct. The picture dates from after the sculpture. There's a story behind that. Once, late one night, Martin explained the idea behind this picture. Months later I asked him what had become of the work but he knew nothing about it. So I described it to him, very precisely once more, and once again so he could write it down. He was quite enthusiastic about his idea, and went on to execute it. Normally he had a fantastic memory for the details of his work.
TG: Martin Kippenberger always liked dancing.
AO: And he danced very well.
TG: But what has all that got to do with a mine?
AO: Under the carpet there's an iron plate and under that there's a shaft leading down through foam, hardboard and foam again, until we get to a space with pasta in. He came from Essen, and his father was a colliery manager. That's why he was able to imagine something like that. He wanted to have it like a tiramisu. That would mean the main course was buried in the dessert. That was his philosophy.
TG: So the pasta is hidden, like the unknown object in Duchamp's sculpture, With A Mysterious Noise?
AO: Quite. Martin was not interested in secrets; he was glad to tell anyone. Things you know have a stronger effect on you than things you know nothing about.
TG: But there are people marked throughout their lives by unconscious complexes and repressed injuries or insults, aren't there?
AO: Me, for example.
TG: The Bergwerk sculpture shows an unspeakable boot-like, Freddy Mercury shoe placed on a carpet. That's a strange culture clash in itself. The whole thing is then placed on a yellow, two-part foam plinth. What's the point of this elevation, this cushioning?
AO: Well, at the bottom, people are slaving away to earn their bread (or pasta) and, at the top, people are dancing. That is not so much a culture clash as a contrast between work and leisure or house-and-garden (cf. the carpet). And besides, at one time we wore boots like that ourselves.
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Albert Oehlen, Selbstporträt mit Palette, 1984 (detail)
